Genius needed, PC issue (case fans often failing)

I'm making this similar thread in many parts of the internet and for once in my life, I haven't found anyone able to give me meaningful advice to solve an issue at hand. And this issue really sucks, so I could use help from anyone who might have any ideas....

So for the past month I've been experiencing quite the head-ache. Let me explain my fan setup first...I'm using a Swiftech H240-X AIO water cooler in a Corsair 450D case. I've got 6 fans in my case. They are 4 Noctua NF-A14's 3000RPM PWM fans, one Noctua 120MM PWM fan in the rear, and one Corsair AF140 on the front bottom. I had this setup working with zero issues for 6 months.

So 2 Noctua NF-A14's are intake on the front of my case, and a Corsair AF140 as the bottom front intake. Then 2 Noctua NF-A14's are attached my H240-X radiator, exhausting at the top of my case, and the 120mm Noctua fan exhausting in the rear. The 4 Noctua AF-A14s are attached to an 8-way PWM Swiftech splitter, which is attached to the CPU fan slot on my mobo. The 120mm Noctua and Corsair AF140 are hooked up to a Zalman fanmate, which is hooked up to a 3-pin on my mobo.

About a month ago, all of my NF-A14 fans shut off while my computer was running. Followed by this was a burning plastic smell. Eventually they started working on their own (after 30 minutes and a few attempts of restarting my PC). I hoped the problem was random and wouldn't happen again, but surely it did. Except the next time it happened, I couldn't get the fans to start by simply restarting, so I had to open up my PC and start testing the cables and connections. After experimenting, I discovered two of my Noctua fans were completely dead, and if left in the Swiftech splitter none of the fans sharing the splitter would work. Nor would they work if plugged into a 3-pin on my mobo.

I contacted Swiftech, asking about the splitter and its possible involvement in this scenario, and they said the fans must have been faulty. But what are the odds of receiving 2 fans that both went faulty and died at the same time?

With no other options, I continued to use the splitter, just with the 2 working Noctua fans put on the Heatsink, and put my old fans back in my case. Unsure if I should re-use the splitter, I ordered a new one and got filed an RMA with Noctua for the two replacements.

I've had the replacements in, along with the splitter for a couple weeks and everything has been fine - up until today. When I was playing Killing Floor 2 with a friend, I felt my PC get really hot and I saw my temperatures escalate to 85+. I checked and all my Noctua fans were off. I was nearly about to quit the game and turn off my PC until they whirled back up again and started spinning (all of them).

So clearly something is about to give. I just don't understand the issue. Why would this fan setup would fine for 6 months, and now I'm experiencing consistent fan failures? What can I change in my setup to achieve the PWM control I need without the risk of failure? Do I just have to ditch Noctua fans altogether? I'm pretty sure sure I'm not exceeding the amperage provided by the SATA power-port that powers the Swiftech splitter.

The only thing I could possibly imagine is that there's too much wire entropy going on in my case. With all of it shoved in behind the back panel and mobo, it bulges the case outward. Maybe this sort of tension on the wires is causing some weird electricity-action going on - but that's such a vague guess and isn't very scientific. I'm just out of ideas. Can anyone clue me in?

If you were running 6 fans off of one splitter that is your problem , A SATA power connector maxes at 1.5A per pin ie per voltage set. Using four of those 3000rpm 140mm fans each one will use at max rpm .55A 12v. Then those other two Corsair AF140's their pulling at max rpm .23A 12v a piece. So total max is 2.66A if all those fans are running at 100%. So unless all fans stay below 50% rpm your going to burn out fans from not being able to supply enough current to them. Also a chance you can or did damage the sata power connector or splitter plug as well.

Yeah, your sucking to much power. That's one thing I made sure of when I bought my fan controller is that it could support double the amount of fans I wanted to use.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811992012&cm_re=fan_controller-_-11-992-012-_-Product

The one I use can supply 30 Watts of power per channel (has 6, for a total of 180 watts). I use 4x Corsair AF140 Quite (12 volts, .15 amps, 1.8 watts each) and 2x Corsair SP120 Quite (12 volts, .09 amps, 1.08 watts each).

I use 9.36 watts at 100% load. Yes 180 Watt fan controller is over kill... But I wanted something I could rely on. :P

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure SATA cables provide a stable 4.5+ amps. That .55A power draw is only if the fans were all at 100% - and they're never running above 30%. I normally always run them at 20%, so each fan is most likely drawing under .2amps. And only the 4 140MM Noctua NF-A14 fans are attached to the splitter. The other fans are on the mobo.

I like these answers so far though. I'm just not convinced that I'm anywhere near exceeding anything. If I were, I don't think that'd necessarily kill the fans either. I don't feel like I'm running a particularly dicey operation in terms of what I'm splitting. Noctua fans are supposed to draw a rather light amount of amps - I should be able to have 8 hooked up to the splitter with no issues.

Okay, let's see.....

"Insanity" - Defined by Einstein: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

You had the same setup that burned out on you before. So you replaced things and then had the same result as the first time....yet you say your setup is not the issue?

Hmmm.....

Which aspect of the setup would be the issue though? I'm not the only guy on earth running Noctua fans on this splitter. A quick google search reveals plenty of people using more fans than me on this splitter...

Also - one situation of fan failure isn't indicative of anything. It wasn't until this issue began occurring again that it it's indicative of something being wrong with my setup. But there has to be a reason, and a way to fix it.

@KHAndAnime: 1 Sata connector supplies 4.5 amps or 54 Watts on the 12v pins.

You have NF-A14 iPPC-3000 PWM I take it. So that is .55 amps per fan times 4 = 2.2 amps. So even at full load your running only half the Sata spec as long as that power cable is just powering that.

The Swiftech 8-Way PWM Splitter with SATA Power Connector is very hard to find any specs on. There are 8 fan headers, so I would assume each header supplies .5625 amps. That's not accounting for loss from the splitter. So you are literally right on the edge of being supported, assuming your getting all .56 amps. When most computers are in the post stage, they tend to fire up fans 100% for a few seconds. This could be damaging your splitters circuit board... Which can lead to other issues with regulation.

Problem is that each voltage on the set is supplied by three small pins in parallel and those small contacts by themselves cannot supply the full current that the line can offer. If the 12v line on sata was able to handle true and steady 4.5A with 54watts you shouldn't be seeing any issue. Your running into current problem that is why your burning things up. Sata power connectors can handle bursts without much trouble, but rule of thumb is try not to exceed more then 1.5A per voltage set ie 12v 3.3v and 5v. for continuous usage. Because your not guaranteed to get what its rated for continuous use because of the limitation from the contacts.

Even at 30% your using 1.52A

Since when does insufficient power result in permanently dying fans? Wouldn't the fans just refuse to power from the start if they weren't getting enough power?

And where did you get that rule of thumb?

Honestly, this just sounds all like leaps of logic to me. According to a Swiftech representative, the Swiftech 8-way PWM splitter is designed to support 8 of these fans at once. These fans have roughly the same amperage rating as my fans. It also supports 1A per header. I'm not exceeding anything, at all, according to Swiftech.

My quick Google-fu says the 8-way splitter supports 1A per header. My computer's fans only turn up to ~70% while booting. I know this because 100% is way louder. The only specs I was given is that they are designed to run 8 of the Swiftech Helix fans at once. I'm not pushing that equivalent in amps.

All of this overload speculation simply isn't adding up. If I'm over-drawing power, none of that is evident. I'm within specification.

How about you do what they say and see if it changes anything rather than just argue.

You won't know until you try.

Try what? Nobody has suggested anything. Everyone just say I'm overdrawing power, which I'm not. I've already tried disconnecting 2 fans. These are the fans I have, they're very nice and expensive fans - and the splitter is required for my cooler - so this is what I have to use more or less.

Previously when my first fan setup failed, which ran fine for six months, I had all 6 of the fans in my case hooked up to the splitter.

This time, I have 2 less fans attached to the splitter (only 4). So if you're suggesting for me to disconnect fans and put them on other power sources, I've already done that. If overdrawing amperage was the culprit - I'd be going a lot longer than previously before experiencing problems because I'm using less power than before. That alone more or less entirely rules out that theory. Less fans attached shouldn't result in faster failure if you guys were right, I'm sorry. I do appreciate the help though.

Well to find the problem you may have to switch many different things.

When I try to find a problem with a computer I go through all the possible parts until I find the culprit.

That burning you explain could be a sign of the fan's voltage regulator burning out.

You could try not using the splitter at all and use the molex connectors from the power supply.

For my computer case I have 8 fans and I never use a splitter.

If the fans still stop working then replace all of them and try again.

If those new fans still stop working even when all are connected to separate molex connectors then replace the power supply or if it's modular then replace the molex connector cord.

Like you said it may not be the fans or the splitter that is the issue.

It could be the power source the splitter is connected to that is causing the issue.

@RyviusARC: Unfortunately that would be 8 amps. Which would not be in the Sata 12v spec of 4.5 amps. Unless your model has the 5v and 3v power leads. Which from the picture it only has the yellow 12v.

Even if you did disconnect 1 or 2 fans... The total supported power per header would not change. So the issue would persist.

I believe, as many others have said, that you are overdrawing power from the mobo fans.

Look up total amps your mobo can provide to your fans. Since it smelled burned plastic, it must have been quite hot somewhere in there.

Am I wrong in guessing that when you turn on your computer, all the fans run at maximum rpm? (oh, 70% or so, not 100%)

Can you see where the burned plastic smell might come from?

Not sure what your reply was to.

The moxel connectors would handle all his fans just fine.

Running 8 fans in my case just fine.

You cant have 8A on the splitter........ sata 12v only allows 4.5A MAX by design limits. That splitter only uses the 12v line not the 3.3v or 5v.

fact is that Swiftech made a flawed designed splitter with false specs.

The advice is dont use the sata splitter, use the 4 pin molex adapters, 4 pin molex can handle 5A on the 12v with 60watts and has a better contact with connectors .

@RyviusARC: ask glitchspot it was for KHAndAnime.

^ this is probably what happened. I think having so many fans all drawing power from one cpu fan connnector on the mb maybe fried it or weakened the power components it uses. I actually didn't know you could even do this, i always just plug one fan into its own slot in the motherboard. The only time I split fans is if i'm using a molex connector directly from the power supply.

I think the combined amps maybe broke something, it probably was too much for that one connector to deal with and it just burned it out over time.

I use just the basic molex connectors if im splitting lots of fans, only downside to this is there is no throttle control, they just run one speed

Silly question, but did you try the powering the splitter from other sata ports (not sure if all the ports share a power supply circuit)? It's possible that you could have burned/damaged the power supply circuitry of the sata port. Hooking the splitter to a non-sata power source could answer whether or not the splitter is working correctly.

Less fans attached could fail quicker if the power circuit is already damaged.

Also if there are any visible melt/burn marks that would be helpful to know.

@KHAndAnime: Had any luck figuring out the problem?

Sorry guys, I've been busy and unable to check the thread.

Thanks for asking. I contacted Swiftech's support because I felt like they would be best capable of deducing the issue.

Based on the information that you’ve provided, it appears that these Noctua fans just aren’t compatible with our PWM splitter. They likely are using an implementation of PWM control that when used with our splitter ends up degrading the functionality of the fans. This is quite unusual and it’s something that our engineers are probably going to have to look into.

Essentially, I tried to buy what I thought would be the best fans, which also happened to be some of the most expensive ($30 per), and I think I'm simply shit out of luck. Unlike the time when I was upgrading all the cooling in my PC when I initially purchased these fans, I'm tight on cash at the moment, so I'm just going to have to sit tight. If I'm lucky, I'll last 6 more months again before any fans die. Since I ordered 4 and have sent back 2, Noctua will likely let me RMA 2 more before giving me lip.

As I'm typing this, I can hear a feint coil whine coming from my PC - that's probably the fans dying as I speak. :p

I'm just not sure what my next step is. If I buy more Noctua fans, should I avoid the iPPC series altogether? Or just the 3000 RPM model? If this setup could hold out 6 more months, I could get a new mobo that actually has additional PWM headers so I could put less of these NF-A14 fans on the splitter itself and more on the mobo. That might help. I'm also contacting Noctua about it, maybe they can help.

The PSU is a modular Corsair 650w. I tried both using a different SATA power cable as well as a different port on the PSU itself. The SATA power cable is hooked up to my SSD too, which has experienced zero issues during this entire ordeal.

There is no visible melt/burn marks, but one of the fans that died still smells like burnt plastic.

@KHAndAnime: You could look into a dedicated fan controller. Personally got the Lamptron FC 9, however since it is based on regulating speed through voltage, I don't think it would suit you well. Getting the wanted RPM on those 3K RPM fans is probably far easier with PWM than voltage controller. I like this one because it requires no software at all. Cable from PSU to controller, fans connected to controller.

These particular fans can't be regulated by voltage, unfortunately. The minimum voltage required for the fans to start is hairblower levels in terms of volume. I run these fans at 20% or less the majority of the time.

If there's another PWM splitter out there, maybe I could give that a try. Or maybe...would it be stupid to try to daisy-chain my PWM splitters? I've got two. Maybe that would help regulate the PWM signal in a way that's less harmful to the fans. I'm really tempted to try that just for the sake of trying something different. I could have 2 fans and pump on the first splitter, and then 2 fans on the second splitter. That would better divvy up the signals and power, right? Seems like a better idea to experiment than utilize a setup that very may well inevitably fail again.

You could just get a couple simple 4pin molex pwm splitter, With molex you have a better contact allows the full 5A 60w connection, And connect two fans to each one and call it a day.

Thanks, I might do this. But that has it's own issues. For example, it's ugly and adds a ton more cables to a situation where I'm about at my limit in terms of what can fit behind my mobo. I'd also have to plug in another big cable to my PSU for the molex connections. I just don't know if I can accomplish this.

I need power for 4 fans and pump without it being a cabling disaster. And if it were an insufficient power problem, I don't see why I couldn't just daisy chain my 2 8-way splitters and only have 2 fans per splitter. And Bryan from Swiftech thinks it has something weird to do with the way the PWM is regulated on the fans - if that's the case, I don't know if simple splitters like that are going to work. I see people who use these and while their fans are getting enough power, the PWM signal gets too weak and lost entirely. It sounds like if anyone would have that sort of issue with fans, it'd be me, because everything attached would be PWM.

I'm going to try daisy-chaining my 8-way PWM splitters, and if that acts up, I'm going to have to experiment with a splitting situation that produces the least amount of cabling.

Just get lower RPM fans. You don't need 3,000 RPM if you only going to run them 20%.

That's the obvious solution but I have no $ for that. I already spent an overkill amount on these fans. Not going to spend a ton of extra money on this when it's potentially solvable for <$10.

Honestly, people in this thread have been incredibly helpful - I'm very confident I don't need to buy a bunch of fans to solve this.

@KHAndAnime: You could always ask the fan maker if you could exchange them for another model.

Thought that would be possible. Anyhow I was thinking you want to control them through PWM anyway.

Seems like there are a few different ways for PWM fans to work. Some use the 12V power line, others use the 5V line. If your mobo deals with PWM fans and their control method through the 12V method, it could be the reason why your fans burned out.

Wouldn't be surprised if those Noctua fans are controlled through the 5V line. I'll try to find some links to explain those two methods better than I can.

I found this here:

There are PWM controllers and there are PWM fans, but the way in which PWM is implemented in each differs greatly: a standard PWM controller modulates the 12 V supply line of an “ordinary” 12 VDC motor. Conversely a PWM controller for PWM fans – such as the one featured in this article – doesn’t modulate the 12V supply line but instead sends a PWM signal along a different supply line (the magic “fourth wire”) to a more advanced 12 VDC motor, leaving the 12 V supply line uninterrupted. Designated PWM fans not only have internal circuitry which differs from that of standard fans, but because they are designed with speed control in mind the motors themselves are usually more advanced (and expensive). So, PWM speed control of a standard fan is indeed very different from PWM speed control of a PWM fan… Nidec even goes so far as to say that modulating the main supply voltage is not advisable:

Pulse-width modulation of DC operating voltage to modify fan speed is not recommended. Transients generated by that approach can irreversibly damage motor commutation and control electronics and dramatically shorten the life of a fan.

Did you fix it? I think the best solution would be to go for the molex connectors and try to distribute them as evenly as possible. I know it's a cabling nightmare, but sometimes aesthetic sacrifices have to be made for the health of the system.

I can't really tell if it's fixed or not because it's something that occasionally flairs up, that is until the fans die (which only happened once). It seemed like everything was good for a week, until the last couple days.

One thing I do now know is that daisy-chaining the PWM splitters, by having a couple fans on each, has given me no luck. A couple times all my fans turned off - once briefly the other day, and an hour ago my fans turned off until I attempted to fix it.

To test the issue, I assumed I had a dead fan: I unplugged all my fans and left in a single PWM splitter, with the pump plugged in, and then tried plugging in each fan individually into the splitter - I couldn't get any of my fans to turn on. I knew there's no way all my fans could be dead. I began testing them through my 3-pin mobo headers and they all worked - so that led me to believe it's the PWM splitter that went bad.

But then I tried something I haven't experimented with: I moved the pump to a mobo 3-pin header. Once I did that, all the fans attached to the PWM splitter that weren't working before now started working. I moved the pump back to the splitter and all the fans stopped working again. This has me convinced the pump could be the culprit, not wanting to play along with the other fans.

So now, I have my 4 140mm fans plugged into my 8-pin splitter that's plugged into the CPU header, and then plugged into that splitter is the other splitter with just the pump attached. My setup now seems to work. I can't tell if it works purely because of luck (because my problem comes and goes randomly until the fans die), or if there's genuinely something wrong with the pump that causes it to be incompatible with other fans running on the splitter.

Could something weird with the pump be causing issues with my Noctua fans? I don't quite know. Something indicative of that would be that when all the fans stop working - the pump is clearly still working (I can hear it). But who knows, it could just be an issue too random or broad for me to isolate and attempting to figure out the specifics will lead me a path to nowhere. Maybe all my fans will start dying again, maybe not. I'll update again if this change fixes anything, or not.

If not, I'll definitely start experimenting with molex splitters. Swiftech offers a molex version of their PWM splitter. I also heard I could just splice my own with a spare molex connector and one of my 8-way splitters.

EDIT: Well, that solution failed quickly.

It seems like the issue is 100% the pump. If the pump is sharing a PWM connection with any of the fans, they all cease to work. I initially thought the pump was getting power from the connection, but it's exclusively a PWM signal it's receiving. For some reason once this PWM connector from the pump is plugged into the same thing as the rest - it all ceases to work (except the pump, which continues to run at 100% whether or not it receives a PWM signal).

Why not just use the molex connectors straight from the power supply and not use splitters at all?

There should be enough for 8 fans.

PWM Fans don't use molex connectors, they use 4-pin PWM connectors.

Anyways, I've already isolated the problem - and it has nothing to do with voltage or lack of power.

It comes down to a signal conflict and damaged wires. I had too many wires nestled together behind my mobo, causing too much tension on the splitter and other wires. If I plug in the PWM signal from my pump, it causes all my other fans to go to 0%. But it seems to also be dependent on wire tension. So basically, if I have the pump plugged into my splitter, and the cords are bent a certain way - nothing works except PWM control for the pump. If I finaggle with the cords while my PC is on, I can actually get everything to work and turn on. But it's picky about its resting position. This seems to be the same case for both splitters, except one splitter seems to be less picky than the other (and works more reliably).

I have everything hooked up to one splitter right now, and everything is working at the moment, I just had to move the splitter to a different location in the backside of my case. Wherever it was resting must have been causing too much tension on the wires. Or something similar to that. Bending the casing for either splitter caused all the fans to work...so there's certainly something up with that. Somehow, tension in the backside of my case was causing my fans to think they're receiving a PWM signal of 0% due to the PWM signal being shared with the pump. I'm going to assume sending a certain amount of this damaged type of signal to my fans is what caused 2 of them to burn out in the past.

I opened up the less reliable splitter's plastic casing and looked inside. Nothing looked damaged or bent. Yet when exerting varying force on the wires attached to it, it began to work.

What a crazy problem. To me, it feels like an inevitable byproduct of entropy occurring within my case.

I'm glad you figured it out @KHAndAnime

Thanks. I appreciate the help guys. I should've figured that it wouldn't have been good for the PWM splitter to squeezed into the back of my case. It seem tiny, but evidently not tiny enough.

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@kiljloe3:

And congrats to you for googling and then necro-ing a five year old thread?