Detective Mode/Instinct/Eagle Vision what do you think of supervision?

It has become really popular over the last decade or so. Mostly thanks to Arkham Asylum. Some people argue it cheapens the stealth and makes the game too easy. I'm specifically referring to supervision that allows to see through walls, tag enemies indefinitely etc. Witcher Sense wouldn't fall under that.

What's your opinion on that?

It can at best be a good supplement to game design, but too many games get lazy and use it in place of actual good quest and level design (Witcher 3 was egregiously bad with this in a lot of quests).

Interestingly enough, Persona 5 actually uses this well.

EDIT: You say Witcher sense doesn't count, which is fair. I think the larger point of games using this as a substitute for actual design and mechanics still stands, however.

I don't like it, personally.

It's slow, void of challenge and it gives you the illusion that you're doing detective work without having to do any of the work yourself.

It reminds me of when you have to follow behind an NPC in terms of how it affects the pacing.

Juub, what would you say of how Horizon uses it?

@Juub1990:

It may have cheapened the experience but keep in mind that not everyone is great at stealth so this was more to make it user-friendly to anyone. I can understand the importance of such a thing and it also fits with Batman's technological background so on all grounds, it makes perfect sense. This also brings a realistic approach to Batman's character too seeing as how having such an ability would make anyone think that he's the world's greatest detective. The real thing being no match for the legend. So it makes sense with Batman.

I think it's a great feature to have for stealth games and it wouldn't hurt if the developers explained the ability to make sense of it. As long as I can toggle it on and off, it doesn't bother me. Such is the case for Batman Arkham. I started off with detective vision on constantly and eventually, I started using it less and less to Arkham Knight where I rarely used it at all.

It doesn't bother me at all. None of the games that use it would I associate with having any real worthwhile challenge in the first place, and as a quest marker, it saves me time, so I welcome it.

If done right then its pretty cool.

Batman, Witcher 3, it makes sense and fits within the game.

Assassins Creed and to some extent The Last of Us its just easy mode

If it's used in interesting ways for the mechanics, it's not an issue. Mark of the Ninja has a similar type of vision, but the difficulty isn't compromised in that game. You now have to design around the fact that the player knows x, y, n z. Which too many games don't do well, that and they can't work without it. Ghosting without that vision in Dishonored isn't really a plausible thing, because it doesn't have as good of a sneaking feed back system as Thief or Splinter Cell or Metal Gear for that matter.

The Witcher 3 it adds nothing to the game, I know it fits the lore, but it completely eliminates any concept of Geralt needing to track anything. It does it for you, you're just following along.

Batman's better stealth spaces work perfectly fine with the knowledge you gain from that vision, plus I always wondered if it had to be the way it is to make up for how the visual direction of a Batman game has to be all dark n bleak n shit. That way it was easier to tell environmental aspects you could use better because of the vision, probably not, but whatevs.

Tl;dr - like anything else it comes down to execution. Arkham Games in stealth and Mark of the Ninja use it well. Just about every other game? Shitty or competent enough that isn't offensive, but hardly a meaningful addition to the game.

Not a fan. Too many games now give the abilitity to mark enemies, see them through walls, etc. Those features kill the fun and unpredictability of combat and enemy encounters, on my opinion.

Mini map is a cheat too.

Dishonored II had the option to see through walls as a power, I didn't take it :)

Can be used well or bad. Depends on the game and the dev. Pretty much as with any other gaming style.

the very core of detective vision or mode in games is a good idea (and I would also count TW3 into this, although it is far less "helpful" then the Arkham games).

But implementation is often pretty bad.. It allows for a change of pace, in the best of cases it would actively try to slow you down, so you have to notice the environments, no story/game can go balls to the wall all the time, it will tire out the player, and make moments of action flat, as it is all you would otherwise see in a game, It is numbing.

We used to have stealth sections for this, which were often even worse implemented, and we still do at times. Detective vision as it is often designed for, is light puzzle solving, and to break the flow of the game to a valley state. However often times, it is broken, likely due to the desire to also use it as a crutch, and easier to just have enabled all the time due to the immense help the vision helps with. The Batman games were really horrible at this. It has been better in most games after.

So While I Like the concept, I dislike how it is most often used.

Unless you're Batman with an arsenal of high tech gadgets, it's just stupid. Like Mafia 3 for exmaple. Even mobsters have super powers now? **** off, seriously. I know a lot of gamers are too stupid to complete a game without the game telling them exactly what to do, but come on. Not all gamers are mentally handicapped.

I don't like it. If i use it to finish a game people like my mum are less impressed with how great I am at video games.

It depends on the genre and implementation but it's massively overused and terrible when it lets you see through walls and mark/track all enemies on a map. Splinter Cell did it best, tying it in with a realistic gadget.

@Juub1990: iirc, Rainbow 6 Vegas 2 had similar thing.

Anyways, Future Soldier went nuts with it by putting it on flying drone, which got even better with WD2. I love the freedom it gives.

Dogshit that caters to kiddies & casuals.

why I play proper stealth games like Thief 1 & 2.

It should be at least contextualised, I mean it makes total sense in Batman but it just doesn't feel right in Hitman or The Last of Us, "Listen mode" my ass

All good if it's optional and can be only used in the single player. Hate it in MP (The Last of Us)

I love it to a certain extent but it goes too far at times. The fact that it can be used to find machine's weaknesses and behavior is neat. The fact that you can tag enemies with it is not. The game is already pathetically easy and a player should not be given that much more ammo to an already impressive arsenal of abilities. I tried using it as little as possible during stealth sections and it was still painfully easy. Its in game implementations are pretty neat and nicely contextualized. It doesn't just come off as a cheap super power like Eagle Vision(AC) or Instinct(Tomb Raider). Though the latter two at least don't allow you to tag everyone so you can know where all enemies are at every time.

Yea, im finding it rather silly in Horizon.

I totally get enhancing your abilities so you can see their weaknesses, it totally fits the lore.

Seeing them from a distance and seeing their paths? not so much.

I only used it when i was close enough to see weak spots, but even that was unnecessary. Its super obvious where the weak spots are anyway.

There's a mission in AVP2000 were you need to use on of Predators vision mods to see a blood trail.

It was cool, and 1 part of a level, in 12 hour game.

Now it's used every 10 minutes, across multiple games in practically the exact same copy-pasted manner.

Exciting.

I love it when they add visual effects. Even though I can solve not one riddle in AC Unity without looking for a guide, gotta appreciate the concept. Or like Perfect Dark on 360 had a gun that can see through walls, think Killzone did something similar. Call of duty black ops 3 think had a specialist or care package (can't recall) that could see people through walls.

Doesn't really bother me, unless it just out-and-out breaks the game. The good thing is when it's entirely optional, and doesn't force it down your throat every 5 seconds.

it's a convenience, that's about it, I don't love it or hate it, and if you feel games with it are too cheap and feel like they were designed for casual noobs, is it really these vision options dragging it down like that? Sure it's not like a giant list of more substantive issues?

I hate it. It just makes Stealth Too Easy.

hopefully You can turn it off in Hitman 2016.

It was in mafia 3? how on earth did they explain that one?

Pretty much this^.

If you're using it to mark enemies with, then the game better be more of a time-sink that's not meant to be really engrossing. When it's used like that, I like it a lot. Like the stealth in the Far Cry series. I prefer that series to be loose with it, and to keep up the action and pace

What about the radar in Metal Gear Solid? Why isn't that a culprit? Btw, you can turn it off after you've most likely memorized enemy locations and patrol routines.

All of these are essentially new takes on doing the same thing older games did before. They're not really that offensive at all.

Immersion breaking, I hate it so much.

Doesn't bother me but I find it funny how many people get triggered by it like they know what stealth mechanics should be when they have a memory of a fraking potato.

I don't typically mind it either way except I hate in the Arkham games where you use it so often and it makes the whole environment look bad.

As an optional tool, I dont mind. Case in point, older AssCreed games. You didnt have the rely on it. Some newer iterations rely too much in it. Example Batman series, the graphics are too dark and muddy to distinguish a breakable wall for example and the Riddler puzzles almost require you to use it always.

Its one of the worst mechanic ever introduce along with cover system and regen health. you see through walls and know what is going on behind there.

Don't see how a cover system is a bad mechanic. Wouldn't you take cover if you was being shot at. It's more realistic than circle strafing around everything.

if i take cover in real life. i dont know what is going behind my take. but in dumbed down third person shooters. you can see behind what is going on thus making game very easy.

beside real life soldiers do not take cover like hollywood movie heroes.

So how do they avoid enemy fire then if they don't take cover.

yes. this is in mafia 3. and thats why its such a disgrace to the series.

beside its in assassins creed and far cry games too.

Im not against it in general but its implemented with little thought in the games ive played that have it. It can come off as kind of insulting to the player when the game in question is already easy and holds your hand in other ways, just another way in which the games treats you like a helpless dumbass. Like the arkham games its totally out of place imo. Youre supposed to detect ya know like figure things out, not be given some "x marks the spot you retard!" assist. Point and click adventures from the 90s have much more intriguing problem solving mechanics...and theyre not even that great themselves.

Edit: regarding my batman complaint i realize its not aiming to be anything other than an action based game but i still dont like it lol

I love it and anything else the "gameplay guys gang" dislike.

it becomes lame because they start designing around it.

Square peg, round hole.

Poor Ass Creed doesn't get credit for doing it first.

Casual vision.

Take any and all difficulty out of games.

Even as action-based game there isn't much to it. A lot of games now lack the frustration of older games, but it's also generally like a flat path where it's safe but boring. You climb a mountain it might be shit in parts but when you reach the top you'll get a high the path could never give you.

I like it because I don't wear headphones when I play. I just play with a soundbar (and sometime not at that high a volume, to not annoy people in my house). Since I can't necessarily hear every footstep or noise, I feel like these artificial 6th sense makes up for that a bit.

I think it makes the game more playable in stealth games like hitman and mgsv. Just makes experience more interesting and optional being able to see through walls and know what is aroind the corner.