Covid Deaths

I believe most deaths attributed to covid are caused by the treatment not the virus.

For example, I read a story about a 28 year old doctor who died battling the virus. They tried numerous treatments none worked. They discovered bleeding on the brain caused by the treatment and she died.

Its unfortunate but I don’t think the medical society has a clue how to treat the virus. Traditional methods obviously don’t work at all.

When you've got this many people infected with a virus, it's unavoidable that some will unfortunately not respond well to treatment, or have their condition worsened by it.

Until we have a vaccine, we aren't really treating the virus. All we can do is try and help with the symptoms long enough so the patient's immune system can deal with the virus.

I'm not sure why you think the treatment being used for covid patients is completely ineffective. Do you think if we didn't treat them at all the number of deaths would be no worse, or maybe even less than it is currently?

Do you have anything apart from a single example to back this up?

@netracing: if you look it up almost all the deaths are “covid related,” not actually “covid.” Its not a conspiracy they simply have no idea how to treat it.

The government and medical professionals don’t have a clue what they are doing with this virus, remember when they were telling people not to bother wearing masks unless it was an N95, because anything else was useless? Now they preach wearing them all the time. How did they mess that information up so bad right from the start.

Yeah, it's not as simple as black-and-white "COVID killed this person." That's not how infectious diseases tend to work. AIDS, for example, doesn't technically kill you; it just wipes out your immune system and makes you vulnerable to opportunistic infections, many of which would have otherwise been manageable. When you die of AIDS, however, your cause of death is still going to be marked down as "HIV/AIDS-related." Same deal with COVID.

I probably wouldn't be too hard on your governments and public health systems, though. Many countries, especially in the West, don't tend to deal with this kind of thing very often, and so lack hard experience. Where I live, in contrast, we deal with this kind of thing frequently, and invested heavily on being ready for the next one. And so we had 1,000 contact-tracing teams and a million volunteers ready to go from the outset, many of whom are hardened veterans of previous fights with things like AIDS, dengue fever, malaria, etc. We also had a clear and simple mask advisory since February; "social distance first, if you can't, wear masks." Probably as a result, we have one of the best COVID numbers in the world.

None of it is a panacea, of course, hence why I get annoyed with people who think wearing masks mean you don't have to take other precautions. Every little bit helps, and people eventually learn and adapt - it's just they often have to do it the hard way.

@ratchetclank92: yea in Canada February/March of this year they repeatedly told people not to wear masks & how they don’t do anything.

Now we have to wear them and they push the idea its your civic duty & everyone is on board lol 🤷‍♂️

Yes, its probably a sh*t show out there. I don't think there is a cure, yet. Probably through *explosives* it'll kill all the infected.

This. "Covid related" isn't some codeword for "doctors are killing people in the hundreds of thousands through incompetent treatment".

@Skarwolf: @ratchetclank92: You were told not to wear masks in the west because of supply issues.

Many western governments were worried that there wouldn’t be sufficient supply for medical workers hence they openly went down this route.

Western societies in general are not well equipped (culturally) to deal with a pandemic. We havent seen a epidemic strike us within a lot of our lifetimes. So to a lot of us, the abnormal is now pushed on us as a civic duty, and people can be extremely resistant to change, especially if it means to move away from the normal.

When a person dies, an autopsy is made. The last contributing ailment to death is the one listed as the cause of death. A lot of those COVID related deaths, had the cause of death be in turn caused by COVID. It is the same with HIV/AIDS actually.

A lot of hospitals and medical workers too have had no real pandemic experience, since like I said before, most of us never had to deal with anything like this before. But the doctors are experts are still far more qualified than a layperson. The masks thing was about not getting masks so those who actually need them the most (healthcare workers) could have access to them. Likewise, the media and blogosphere tends to misreport what the experts are actually saying. And when they actually did make mistakes, they corrected those mistakes ASAP. You can't expect the scientific community to have flawless understanding instantly.

China handled COVID 19 a lot better than a most western countries.

Stop fear mongering.

Also, what is the context of the death? Did the person have COVID, which resulted in some other complication, which in turn required a treatment that wasn't explicitly for COVID but for the complication?

There are too many factors to consider, but I seriously doubt this person died simply because they sought medical attention for COVID.

People were initially told not to wear mask because it was not yet confirmed how it was transmitted. Additionally, medical professionals need those masks more than anyone and if you suddenly have a few billion people buying masks (not to mention all the profiteering that would occur) the people that really need the masks won't get them.

Truth is you still don't really need the masks; guidelines say six feet apart is enough, or just go outside. Masks are required only if you're in proximity to people.

Exactly.

Yeah. I have literally never seen people in public wear face masks until COVID here in the US. Culturally, the "anti-maskers" are a damn embarrassment; our focus on happiness and success has made us refuse to consider the wellbeing of others, as mask-wearing is more to stop the spread of the disease if you have it, not to strictly protect yourself from it.

The last time there was a panic like this was in the early 2000's when Anthrax was a big scare and people were duct taping their windows and buying respirators, and even then that was just the nutcases.

I'm 35 and this is the first time I've experienced anything like this. I adapt well to adversity and I am a bit of a hermit, non-social so I am coping OK but I can totally understand how people are freaking out.

@mrbojangles25: you seem to forget sars, ebola, aids... etc

Anyways you’re incorrect on transmission they knew all along how it transmitted. China initially lied to the WHO who wrongly parroted that info to the world which allowed it to spread.

In Canada they told people not to wear masks because they feared a shortage. That was from the chief medical person on the news.

In the medieval era they thought you had to bleed people when they were sick to get rid of the bad blood. When a person told them it was wrong they said “STOP FEAR MONGERGING!”

@Skarwolf: *cue right wingers thinking the whole thing is basically a hoax*

@turtlethetaffer: i am neither side. I think they’re both fucked. If I had my way they wouldn’t exist 😈

Oh lord. Not this again. Learn the difference between mechanism and cause of death.

I'm right there with you. I'm a registered independent because I think the party system causes so many more problems than it fixes. I tend to be pretty damn left leaning, but if parties disappeared, I think the world as a whole would be better off.

@Skarwolf: Why are you doing this? Are actually that misinformed, or (as I suspect) are you just intentionally pushing misinformation for fun?

Here masks weren't pushed for because they feared shortage among those who really need them.

Also you might have several diseases already that are manageable. Put Covid into the mix and you end up dead. @Maroxad Wrote it much better. But hey I guess by OP logic no one has ever died from HIV/AIDS.

Luckily most of the world has developed since the medieval period. We now do testing before we recommend something. A practise that was not very much in use hundreds of years ago.

Did they though?

Unless you are too stupid to use an obviously killer treatments or trying to experiment something, your patient wont die from treatments alone. But then again what other treatments are you talking about? i caught the flu during covid and it lasted 4 days i guess but then their was a weird fever that i was catching every evening for contineous 10 days, never happened that to me ever. and it was weir it used to disappear every morning and then come back every evening. So i never got tested so i am not sure if i had covid, but i used an antiallergy and a paracetamol. on daily basis, and became healthy again. I recommended it to others and they also got fine in a week or so.

That was me and that was my covid possibly but one thing is for sure that the above is not a recommendation.

Yes, they did, early reporting, situation managing, rapid availability of medical facilities and supplies allowed China to handle the virus way, way better than us europeans.

https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/508448

You can question the data all you want. But according to the data. China's has a population of around 100 times larger than my own, but the ammount of infections and deaths is roughly the same.

Now is it possible that differences in reporting leads to a country over or underreporting? Yes. But that doesnt change the fact that China nowadays seem a lot less hit than us european countries. Looking at the economy and other factors.

That's scary, is there a source for us to check that news?

Here's a link the op neglected to include:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/22/us/houston-adeline-fagan-covid-19-death/index.html

It doesn't say anything about the treatment causing the bleed that eventually killed her, but it does make it pretty clear that without the medical interventions she would have already been dead because her lungs had basically stopped working. She had joined an experimental drug trial, but she had to be ventilated before they had time to even see if it was working.

We can at least agree on that :D

New York is starting to go up again this sucks.

I work in the field. I've seen people recover and I've seen people die. Keeping in mind that this is a novel - ie new - virus and we had to develop methods of intervention through trial and error, and keeping in mind that many of the reported studies are yet to be peer reviewed. I don't want to get into an argument over this. What I will say is, for instance, hydroxychloroquine was lauded as a miracle drug by politically motivated sources after a small, not replicated or peer-reviewed study showed some promise. Some practitioners began using it experimentally and patients would request it. In June the FDA pulled emergency use authorization for it because it turned out to actually be associated with worse outcomes. Research is always going to lag behind data. Whenever we get results of a Covid test there comes with it a five paragraph essay explaining that the test is performed under emergency use authorization and a negative result does not necessarily mean a patient does not have it. The full clinical picture must be taken into account into context. One could argue that some tests, in particular the rapid molecular assays are akin to supplements saying "this product not evaluated by the FDA". In regard to Covid deaths, I will defer to the excellent videos on Dr Mike Hansen’s you tube channel. In short, it's debatable whether certain damaging outcomes are the result of direct damage done by the virus, or inflammatory cascades associated with the body's response to it.

Now after all that doom and gloom I will say that I have seen the rise of systematic and rapid co-ordinated intervention in the ICU that works. I've seen people turn around from the precipice due to how much we have learned. In short it does depend on how severe is your presentation and whether you have significant comorbidities. But you and others above are correct in that sometimes people are not going to respond well to treatments or have an adverse reaction. It does not follow that all or even most Covid deaths are due to treatment. The pathophysiology of Covid involves many complex pathways and the disease and its complications can definitely kill you. When it fails, due to the adaptive immune response or due to medical intervention, people often continue to suffer from the deleterious effects of the damage done. These people overwhelmingly advocate against the idiocy of people who refuse to acknowledge the existence and threat of COVID-19.