@nod_calypse said:
@br0kenrabbit said:
@nod_calypse said:
@br0kenrabbit said:
Why don't you add the rest of that Madison quote?
A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained in arms, is the best most natural defense of a free country.
Seems you're purposely leaving out the 'well regulated' and 'trained in arms' part. Wonder why?
😆😆😆😆
Dude, again, what in the world are you talking about.
Do you know who George Mason is?
Yes, militia means the people. As in, the people regulating themselves in accordance with their patriotic duty.
"Who are the militia? They consist of the whole people."
Furthermore, Richard Henry Lee. I assume you don't know him, either. Former President of the Continental Congress. Literally, in no uncertain terms, defined militia with respect to the right to bear arms: well trained, regulated, distinct from troops:
"A militia when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves, and render regular troops in great measure unnecessary. The powers to form and arm the militia, to appoint their officers, and to command their services, are very important; nor ought they in a confederated republic to be lodged, solely, in any one member of the government. First, the constitution ought to secure a genuine [ ] and guard against a select militia, by providing that the militia shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include, according to the past and general usage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms; and that all regulations tending to render this general militia ― useless and defenceless, by establishing select corps of militia, or distinct bodies of military men, not having permament interests and attachments in the community is to be avoided. …To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…."
Again, you're buried in all this.
And again this is for the defense of the country. Not the home. Not the car. The country. These are the principles upon which the State National Guards are founded. That's why they are commanded by the Governor, not the Federal Government.
@nod_calypse said:
Again, you're buried in all this.
Grow up, child.
🙄
Literally, you are being willingly oblivious. This is absurd.
The Supreme Court define the intent of the founding fathers:
Founding Fathers’ intention to grant that individual right could not be misinterpreted by those seeking to pass unconstitutional gun control legislation.
The ruling:
“The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.”
The President of the Continental Congress defined militia as the people themselves:
A militia when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves
To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them
And, as a special bonus just for you. Thomas Jefferson speaking on assaults, homicides, and individual assailants (not armies):
"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776
...and speaking on every day walks of the common citizen, holding arms to protect themselves:
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785
....and that people may possess arms alone, by themselves, to use as necessary with discretion:
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824
George Tucker on self-defense by way of arms for the common man:
"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature...and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England,1803
Samuel Adams himself. Speaking the truth:
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
Patrick Henry. Last but certainly not least, to say the least.
Arms for the common man, as per his own discretion for defense of family and homestead--Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”
-Patrick Henry, Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution
Yep.
I can copy-pasta, too:
America’s “founding fathers” led an armed population against the British monarchy and won. It is understandable that they saw the way the country was founded as an example of how it should be organized. They were fighters who wanted the ability to keep fighting to preserve their independence. And thus we got bearing arms as a cornerstone American right.
Since the gun control / gun rights debate often tries to discern the intentions of the Founding Fathers to suit polemic purposes (producing countless memes with misquotations), let’s look at some of the actual quotes by the makers of America:
Thomas Jefferson wrote this into the 1776 draft of the Virginia Constitution, the first such document of a state declaring their independence:
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”
That seems pretty cut and dry until you consider that the second and third drafts of the same document added “within his own lands or tenements”to the sentence. It seems Jefferson seriously considered that there should be some limitations on the individual’s right to gun ownership. It makes sense to own a gun for self-defense on your own property, but a different set of issues comes up when this gun is taken into public space.
Another oft-used quote by Jefferson used by gun rights advocates is: “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” Here Jefferson states the basic principle behind rising up against the monarchy – while it’s harder to control and keep stable, a democratic society is preferable to being enslaved, though peacefully. And, as we all know, guns are an excellent instrument for disrupting peace.
The statement can be debated further – is it more moral to live in a society where individual safety is not guaranteed and people often die due to gun violence versus living in a society where you have fewer freedoms, but greater safety for all individuals? Is “freedom” more precious than safety?
While guns are certainly useful in overthrowing monarchs, is individual gun ownership the best way to oppose monarchs or hypothetical tyrants? For argument’s sake, if the main reason to have a gun is to stop a potential dictator, what if people are organized into militias (as the founding fathers advocated) or some such political organization? And these people could have a collective well-guarded stockpile of guns and munitions instead of guns being out there in the world for any random person to use (for purposes having nothing to do with stopping the next Hitler).
The few people who are passionate enough about standing up to the government occasionally do organize themselves in such fashion (like Cliven Bundy’s family). But outside of this anti-tyrannical reasoning, it can be argued that the prevalence and the media attention on gun violence is causing the fear and instability in society that is the perfect breeding ground for a tyrant to exploit.
James Madison actually supports a similar argument for organizing into state militias here:
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”
He essentially believes that responsible citizens skilled in the use of guns who are able to organize into militias provide a barrier against dictatorship.
George Washington also saw some limitations on the role of militias. As Edward Lengel, editor in chief, of the Papers of George Washington project at University of Virginia, said in this interview to Politico:
“Indeed, during the (Revolutionary) war he very frequently lamented the crimes carried out by armed civilians or undisciplined militia against their unarmed neighbors. The solution to these crimes, as he understood it, was to increase the power of the government and the army to prevent and punish them — not to put more guns in the hands of civilians.”
In fact, Washington sent state militias to counter the Whiskey Rebellion of 1794, when Western Pennsylvania citizens led an armed conflict to fight a new whiskey tax. Washington saw the rebellion as being a concern to the central government and praised “citizen soldiers”for dealing with it.
Washington also said that:
“A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.”
Usually, only the first part of this quotation is used – “A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined”. It’s clear that Washington is again talking about citizen soldiers and the need for them to be disciplined and organized, with a plan and concern for safety. It’s doubtful he meant a climate where guns are freely available in 24-hour megastores.
Of course, it often comes down to interpretation. What did the “Founding Fathers” really mean?
In an example, Ben Franklin said this:
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
While it appears to mean something else, this often-invoked quote actually defends the power of a state legislature to impose tax in the interest of collective security. It’s not really about the gun issue at all, but very often appears on self-serving lists of quotes that are used by various activists. This illustrates the danger of reading too much into the words of admittedly great, but long-since-dead people to address the modern issues we, the living, face.
It is safe to say the Founding Fathers definitely saw a role for guns in fighting against or avoiding tyranny (based on their own example and the weaponry available in their day). They also were not the unequivocal, loud gun rights advocates that some would like them to have been.
They were, as we’d like them to have been, wise.
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