Controller > M/KB for FPS

... well at least in terms of multiplayer.

I have been playing PC fps online for about as long as they have existed. But I think today is the day i have realised, while incredibly imprecise, a gamepad is just more fun for fps.

The revelation came after a bout of quake live instagib CTF where i was doing exceedingly well at out-aiming my opponents, and i realized... i just wasnt trying as hard as i do when i play halo reach.

the mouse is so precise, to the point where it isnt terribly difficult to blast everyone else.... but when im playing a game like halo reach online i feel like its an epic battle just to get the crosshairs lined up due to how crappy the joysticks are. It really is far more challenging.

This will be fun :)

Nope

I play FPS using a wheelpad and my feet.

Handicapping myself means im more skilled, amirite? It also makes the game more fun.

But..Halo...Helps...You..Aim.

Trying harder in Halo is in reality you struggling more with the interface. Not sure how that is positive.

Edit: Just so we agree here. Ther argument is that controllers are better because they're worse right?

I play FPS using a wheelpad and my feet.

Handicapping myself means im more skilled, amirite? It also makes the game more fun.

XaosII

if you can aim as well as a mouse user with a wheelpad only using your feet... yes you are more skilled... in fact, ridiculously skilled.

write your name on a peice of paper with your right hand, not too difficult, everyone can easily do it. Now see who can write their name best with their left hand... its more difficult, competition is more fun. Now try writing your name with your feet....

As the task gets more difficult and less intuitive, there is a larger margin for practice and improvement.

Fun is subjective, precision is objective therefore M/KB > Controller.

I find it harder to aim with a mouse, they usually feel TOO precise as stupid as that may seem, even if I turn the DPI setting down or the sensitivity you either end up with it being too sluggish or too nippy. Saying that, if I tried playing a console FPS without aim assist it'd probably be just as bad.bobbetybob

half the battle for PC fps i find is just dialing in that mouse sensitivity to the piont where it feels natural.

:lol:

.. Oh wait, you're being serious?

*mumbles incoherently* I don't even...

To me, the mouse isn't the issue. It's obviously more precise. It's keyboard that I hate with a passion. If I really wanted to, I'd try harder to get used to it, or I'd find a keyboard that I really love, but the button layout of the controller makes it easier to use for me. In an FPS, I'm just not fast enough with the keyboard to be competitive. The one exception for my rule is RPGs, which allow so much more complexity when you play with the keyboard. romans828_2002

Fun is subjective, precision is objective therefore M/KB > Controller.

coreybg

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

[QUOTE="romans828_2002"]To me, the mouse isn't the issue. It's obviously more precise. It's keyboard that I hate with a passion. If I really wanted to, I'd try harder to get used to it, or I'd find a keyboard that I really love, but the button layout of the controller makes it easier to use for me. In an FPS, I'm just not fast enough with the keyboard to be competitive. The one exception for my rule is RPGs, which allow so much more complexity when you play with the keyboard. KHAndAnime

bah i ditched my keyboard a while ago. Gameboards are where its at. Using 3 fingers for WASD is incredibly inefficient... If KB/M has to give credit to controller in any area, its the left analog stick/dpad. Nostromo N52 and logitech g13 got the memo.... cant imagine gaming without them.

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

markinthedark

Challenge is also subjective based on the experience you possess. Only generally speaking, a pro will not find good challenge, wile in comparison, a newb will get plenty of challenge.

.

Edit: Just so we agree here. Ther argument is that controllers are better because they're worse right?

Filthybastrd

No way in hell! The only reason people prefer DA is because it has been around for a while and they are used to it.

DA sucks for FPS games so much they have to add a whole bunch of things to make shooting games playable, like auto aim and sticky bullets and a bunch of other stuff.

M/KB > IR > DA

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

Lucianu

Challenge is also subjective based on the experience you possess. Only generally speaking, a pro will not find good challenge, wile in comparison, a newb will get plenty of challenge.

as much as i would like to offer a rebuttle... you are actually completely correct.

So maybe challenge isnt objective... but it can be measured and quantified... which is what i think i wanted to say.

as much as i would like to offer a rebuttle... you are actually completely correct.

So maybe challenge isnt objective... but it can be measured and quantified... which is what i think i wanted to say.

markinthedark

If you prefer a controller and you feel as if you're better with it, that's 'aight, i can't argue against that. Because we use what we are used to, it's natural.

And all this talk about FPSs made me extremelly hungry for Quake 2 modded with HD textures.

Time to play the **** out of it, man, am i in the mood right now.

[QUOTE="Filthybastrd"]Edit: Just so we agree here. Ther argument is that controllers are better because they're worse right?

jeffwulf

lets say we are friends, and i say... "lets see who can stand up the straightest!" pretty lame competition right? Since we can both easily stand up straight.

Now lets say the competition is who can do the straightest handstand... it is more difficult and requires more practice... thus it makes the competition more interesting.

I mean, these are games afterall.... we arent looking for practicality. Its the challenge of a game based on the rules and standards that makes it interesting.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

as much as i would like to offer a rebuttle... you are actually completely correct.

So maybe challenge isnt objective... but it can be measured and quantified... which is what i think i wanted to say.

Lucianu

If you prefer a controller and you feel as if you're better with it, that's 'aight, i can't argue against that. Because we use what we are used to, it's natural.

And all this talk about FPSs made me extremelly hungry for Quake 2 modded with HD textures.

Time to play the **** out of it, man, am i in the mood right now.

Im WAAAY better with a mouse. If i could clone myself and play against my controller version with my M/KB version... it would be a freaking horror show how much i slaughter with a mouse. Mouse is like a scalpel to the meat cleaver of a gamepad.

lets say we are friends, and i say... "lets see who can stand up the straightest!" pretty lame competition right? Since we can both easily stand up straight.

Now lets say the competition is who can do the straightest handstand... it is more difficult and requires more practice... thus it makes the competition more interesting.

I mean, these are games afterall.... we arent looking for practicality. Its the challenge of a game based on the rules and standards that makes it interesting.

markinthedark

Except its more like making a competition about who can dig the biggest hole in the dirt. But instead of agreeing to use shovels, you agree to use spoons.

Purposely handicapping yourself or using a sub-optimal tool for the sake of it ist just dumb. Console gamers put up with it because they dont have a choice.

[QUOTE="jeffwulf"]

[QUOTE="Filthybastrd"]Edit: Just so we agree here. Ther argument is that controllers are better because they're worse right?

markinthedark

lets say we are friends, and i say... "lets see who can stand up the straightest!" pretty lame competition right? Since we can both easily stand up straight.

Now lets say the competition is who can do the straightest handstand... it is more difficult and requires more practice... thus it makes the competition more interesting.

I mean, these are games afterall.... we arent looking for practicality. Its the challenge of a game based on the rules and standards that makes it interesting.

I suppose I sort of understand your mindset. For me personally however, I get the highest degree of immersion with the least possible "lag" between thought and action.

A quality M/KB does this best although certain genres make the traditional gamepad top dog (you'd be insane to play DMC with a keyboard and mouse).

That's also why I'm irked by the Wii-Mote and Move (reminds me of accuracy the old trackball mice had) and I consider Kinect a major step back in control schemes. Ever seen someone cast a fireball in WoW or reload a gun by fist-pumping the air? I don't want to ever again.

Want to play a CoD4 match and see how superior the gamepad control scheme is?

That's like saying that it's more fun to play football after you amputate your legs. :|

A challenge is only fun if the difficulty is legitimate. Call of Duty's hardest campaign mode is harder than its normal mode, but that's only because it's completely retarded in how it ramps up that difficulty.

bah i ditched my keyboard a while ago. Gameboards are where its at. Using 3 fingers for WASD is incredibly inefficient... If KB/M has to give credit to controller in any area, its the left analog stick/dpad. Nostromo N52 and logitech g13 got the memo.... cant imagine gaming without them.

markinthedark

A shame they are too expensive for my budget. I still keep my gamepad connected, hopefully someday someone offers a cheaper alternative of that.

Maybe in the next olympic, they should do the 100m race with one leg instead of 2, I mean it's way more challenging.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

lets say we are friends, and i say... "lets see who can stand up the straightest!" pretty lame competition right? Since we can both easily stand up straight.

Now lets say the competition is who can do the straightest handstand... it is more difficult and requires more practice... thus it makes the competition more interesting.

I mean, these are games afterall.... we arent looking for practicality. Its the challenge of a game based on the rules and standards that makes it interesting.

XaosII

Except its more like making a competition about who can dig the biggest hole in the dirt. But instead of agreeing to use shovels, you agree to use spoons.

Purposely handicapping yourself or using a sub-optimal tool for the sake of it ist just dumb. Console gamers put up with it because they dont have a choice.

No, but its not.

Analogies are tricky things. Should every game have god mode because limited health is a handicap?

remember these are games, the goal isnt to be the easiest game on the market... its simply to offer a challenge to the gamer.

If you wanna dig a hole, use the most efficient tool... if you want to play a game, better be ready to deal with inefficient rules.

That's like saying that it's more fun to play football after you amputate your legs. :|

A challenge is only fun if the difficulty is legitimate. Call of Duty's hardest campaign mode is harder than its normal mode, but that's only because it's completely retarded in how it ramps up that difficulty.

Barbariser

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

I don't get it...... So a gamepad is better because it's worse? WTF?

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

markinthedark

Limitation must be legitimate. What you are talking about is crippling yourself, not "limitation".

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

That's like saying that it's more fun to play football after you amputate your legs. :|

A challenge is only fun if the difficulty is legitimate. Call of Duty's hardest campaign mode is harder than its normal mode, but that's only because it's completely retarded in how it ramps up that difficulty.

markinthedark

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

What does that have anything to do with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"?

I don't get it...... So a gamepad is better because it's worse? WTF?

NeonNinja

Ever watch golf? Wouldnt it be better if they all just walked up to the hole and put the ball in with their hands? or is it better because they have to use stupid clubs and try to inefficiently put the ball in?

Soccer, cant use your hands... worthless sport? Why limit hands, amirite?

Games work based on rules. There isnt a sport out there without limitations. Because with no limitations, its no fun.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

N30F3N1X

Limitation must be legitimate. What you are talking about is crippling yourself, not "limitation".

Name any game in existence that doesnt have limitations that are completely illegitimate. Seriously, give it a shot.

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

I don't get it...... So a gamepad is better because it's worse? WTF?

markinthedark

Ever watch golf? Wouldnt it be better if they all just walked up to the hole and put the ball in with their hands? or is it better because they have to use stupid clubs and try to inefficiently put the ball in?

Soccer, cant use your hands... worthless sport? Why limit hands, amirite?

Games work based on rules. There isnt a sport out there without limitations. Because with no limitations, its no fun.

Do you see people golfing with tree branches? No, they use real equipement.

Just like Tennis, do you still see people playing with wood raquets? NO!!!

Why would you use hands for Soccer..? That's called football or basketball, btw...

I still don't see the point with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"...

When you play with other players that use M/KB, it's challenging just as well.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

That's like saying that it's more fun to play football after you amputate your legs. :|

A challenge is only fun if the difficulty is legitimate. Call of Duty's hardest campaign mode is harder than its normal mode, but that's only because it's completely retarded in how it ramps up that difficulty.

Bebi_vegeta

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

What does that have anything to do with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"?

because its more challenging.

Even my grandmother can pinpoint icons on a desktop with a mouse.... but cant make heads or tails of a controller.

[QUOTE="coreybg"]

Fun is subjective, precision is objective therefore M/KB > Controller.

markinthedark

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

So you're saying that M/KB provides no challenge?

Try playing a PC shooter like CS,Quake,UT2k4 etc. and see if there's no challenge.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="NeonNinja"]

I don't get it...... So a gamepad is better because it's worse? WTF?

Bebi_vegeta

Ever watch golf? Wouldnt it be better if they all just walked up to the hole and put the ball in with their hands? or is it better because they have to use stupid clubs and try to inefficiently put the ball in?

Soccer, cant use your hands... worthless sport? Why limit hands, amirite?

Games work based on rules. There isnt a sport out there without limitations. Because with no limitations, its no fun.

Do you see people golfing with tree branchers? No, they use real equipement.

Just like Tennis, do you still see people playing with wood raquets? NO!!!

Why would you use hands for Soccer..? That's called football or basketball, btw...

I still don't see the point with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"...

When you play with other players that use M/KB, it's challenging just as well.

So basketball and football have no rules that limit player abilities?

why bother dribbling the basketball when you can just carry it, amirite? would be a far more precise and efficient method of moving a ball. But for some reason they are forced to bounce it for seemingly no reason?

There is no sport/game in existence that doesnt put a ton of limiting rules into place... this is fact.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

No its like playing football, vs playing football with no rules (so bring guns)

Any game out there has rules, rules that limit actions.... this is what makes games fun. A game with no rules/limitations would suck.... go ahead, try to think of one.

markinthedark

What does that have anything to do with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"?

because its more challenging.

Even my grandmother can pinpoint icons on a desktop with a mouse.... but cant make heads or tails of a controller.

When I play with good KB/M players, I find it more challenging then when I play with someone that's not good with KB/M.

The only reason why it's more "challenging"... is simply because the KB&M is the best combo for FPS.

Try playing sports, hockey with a KB/M Vs Controler, what's more challenging?

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

Ever watch golf? Wouldnt it be better if they all just walked up to the hole and put the ball in with their hands? or is it better because they have to use stupid clubs and try to inefficiently put the ball in?

Soccer, cant use your hands... worthless sport? Why limit hands, amirite?

Games work based on rules. There isnt a sport out there without limitations. Because with no limitations, its no fun.

markinthedark

Do you see people golfing with tree branchers? No, they use real equipement.

Just like Tennis, do you still see people playing with wood raquets? NO!!!

Why would you use hands for Soccer..? That's called football or basketball, btw...

I still don't see the point with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"...

When you play with other players that use M/KB, it's challenging just as well.

So basketball and football have no rules that limit player abilities?

why bother dribbling the basketball when you can just carry it, amirite? would be a far more precise and efficient method of moving a ball. But for some reason they are forced to bounce it for seemingly no reason?

There is no sport/game in existence that doesnt put a ton of limiting rules into place... this is fact.

Are we talking about rules or challenge?

If you weren't dribbling the ball at basketball, then you'd be playing Football, or another sport.

Again, what you just said... doesn't explain why Controler>KB&M.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="coreybg"]

Fun is subjective, precision is objective therefore M/KB > Controller.

coreybg

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

So you're saying that M/KB provides no challenge?

Try playing a PC shooter like CS,Quake,UT2k4 etc. and see if there's no challenge.

Challenge is definitely there.

good anaolgy is golf... Imagine there are no clubs, we are all 20 ft away from the hole holding a ball. Once the bell whistles... we just have to slam our ball into the hole asap.

With PC fps you are performing a relatively simple task, just trying to do it faster.

With console fps, its more like putting in golf with a club... much more inefficient, but based on judgement rather than speed.

[QUOTE="coreybg"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

fun is subective but challenge isnt.

markinthedark

So you're saying that M/KB provides no challenge?

Try playing a PC shooter like CS,Quake,UT2k4 etc. and see if there's no challenge.

Challenge is definitely there.

good anaolgy is golf... Imagine there are no clubs, we are all 20 ft away from the hole holding a ball. Once the bell whistles... we just have to slam our ball into the hole asap.

With PC fps you are performing a relatively simple task, just trying to do it faster.

With console fps, its more like putting in golf with a club... much more inefficient, but based on judgement rather than speed.

I'll give you a better example... Console FPS = golfing with a tree branch. PC FPS = golfing with a real club.

Now, I don't know why your stuck on FPS only.

Tell me, what's more challenging for sports? KB&M or Controller?

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

What does that have anything to do with "Controller > M/KB for FPS"?

Bebi_vegeta

because its more challenging.

Even my grandmother can pinpoint icons on a desktop with a mouse.... but cant make heads or tails of a controller.

When I play with good KB/M players, I find it more challenging then when I play with someone that's not good with KB/M.

The only reason why it's more "challenging"... is simply because the KB&M is the best combo for FPS.

Try playing sports, hockey with a KB/M Vs Controler, what's more challenging?

It is certainly the the most precise method... is it the best? i dont think so.

Its just too easy to aim with a mouse... to the point where it isnt challenging. When im clicking icons, hell yea... precision is king. When im playing a game... i need stupid arbitrary rules so there is a challenge.

[QUOTE="Bebi_vegeta"]

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

because its more challenging.

Even my grandmother can pinpoint icons on a desktop with a mouse.... but cant make heads or tails of a controller.

markinthedark

When I play with good KB/M players, I find it more challenging then when I play with someone that's not good with KB/M.

The only reason why it's more "challenging"... is simply because the KB&M is the best combo for FPS.

Try playing sports, hockey with a KB/M Vs Controler, what's more challenging?

It is certainly the the most precise method... is it the best? i dont think so.

Its just too easy to aim with a mouse... to the point where it isnt challenging. When im clicking icons, hell yea... precision is king. When im playing a game... i need stupid arbitrary rules so there is a challenge.

If we're talking about FPS, precision really does matter. And for me, that's hands down the best option.

If it's easy for you to aim, then it's easy for others to aim... the challenge is still there, since the best and quickest aimer will win.

When I'm playing FPS, I want to aim for your head... now, I need precision to do that.

But, again... you're only stuck on FPS, making your argument very poor.

[QUOTE="markinthedark"]

[QUOTE="coreybg"]

So you're saying that M/KB provides no challenge?

Try playing a PC shooter like CS,Quake,UT2k4 etc. and see if there's no challenge.

Bebi_vegeta

Challenge is definitely there.

good anaolgy is golf... Imagine there are no clubs, we are all 20 ft away from the hole holding a ball. Once the bell whistles... we just have to slam our ball into the hole asap.

With PC fps you are performing a relatively simple task, just trying to do it faster.

With console fps, its more like putting in golf with a club... much more inefficient, but based on judgement rather than speed.

I'll give you a better example... Console FPS = golfing with a tree branch. PC FPS = golfing with a real club.

Now, I don't know why your stuck on FPS only.

Tell me, what's more challenging for sports? KB&M or Controller?

Usually the arguement for PC is that the mouse is so much more efficient. But when you compare incredibly inefficient methods like a tree branch/club in golf... when you are purposely limiting the participants i guess it doesnt matter as long as they are all equal in the rules.

And i dont play sports games... so i cant comment there. I was a FPS freak since i was a kid.