So why do people hate level scaling?

For those who don't know, level scaling is when the game adjusts the level/strength of monsters to be roughly on par with you at all times, instead of having preset strengths.

It seems to be one of the main criticisms against Oblivion and soon Fallout 3. It doesn't really make sense to me... Without level scaling you have 3 possible outcomes:

1. You are way weaker than monsters. Get destroyed. Forced to go grind exp against weaker monsters. Boring.

2. You are roughly the same strength as monsters. Fair fight, skill required, but doable. Fun!

3. You are way stronger than monsters. Destroy them effortlessy by hammering a single attack button. Boring.

To me only number 2 is fun. And with level scaling it'll always be 2. In a completely non linear game like Oblivion it's the only way to ensure a proper difficulty level. Otherwise some players would just get murdered by going into the "strong" areas, others would get bored by wandering around the "weak" areas. Maybe a few would do places in the right order, but it would completely destroy the freedom to go anywhere. The devs, by setting the monster strength in each area would be setting the order you'd have to play each area. Which would suck, no longer an open world game really.

To me, level scaling is a great design choice. And if you hate it cos of Oblivion, I'd like to point out that Baldur's Gate 2, widely regarded as greatest WRPG of all time, did the exact same thing....

Because the system is simply made too be abused... Why level when it gets easier and easier if you dont?

Also leveling in the wrong way in oblivion can make your character turn out really useless later.. How fun is it being level 30 and knowing it is harder then when you where level 1?

Also, how much sense does it make that a freakin rat will be equally hard no matter how good you get? I prefer that you face harder and harder monsters rather then scaled ones..

ive never had a problem with it

but i will say that i like the way WOW works with areas populated with monsters way too powerful for your level(gives you something to shoot for)

Well the whole point of levelling up is to make you stronger.

But there is no point if it will be just as hard to kill the same enemy if your on level 5 or level 50.

I never really minded it in Oblivion though.

It destroys any sense risk or progression in ones ability because everything is always the same difficulty.

It removes any sense of discovery or chance because all loot will match your level.

It makes role playing next to impossible because leveling up with none combat skills still makes enemies stronger.

It negates the game. As in completely negates the game. You arent getting stronger, no matter what you do.

You can kill the most badass dragon in the game at lvl 1.

How is that fun?

Let me pound ass when i get high level and geared. Let me get destroyed when im too low level for something. Make that boss able to whoop me badly if im not leveled and geared.

Its why i love WOW so much.

Maybe it does break the immersion a bit but to me it's worth it to have a constant challenge. And leveling gives you new skills so there is some point. Also I always found it stupid how in some games if you're level 50 you can take like a hundred sword hits. Am I not still human? If someoone whacks me with a sword it should hurt no matter what level I am :?

It takes away the satisfaction of becoming stronger. I SHOULD be able to completely destroy early game enemy types, it shows how far I've come. But it wasn't the level scaling, so much as the loot scaing, which ruined the static console versions of Oblivion. Knowing where certain items and equipment are, but being forced to level grind to get worthwhile versions of them, now THAT is boring.CronoSquall

Actually yes loot scaling sucked. (Although Diablo another beloved game did this too... :P)

What's the point of leveling up when doing so just makes your enemies more powerful?

I always hated how in Oblivion some stupid mountain lion was still dangerous to you when you're level 25.
Teufelhuhn

This, and the fact that it takes all the fun out of the game. There's no danger in it either...

I'd prefer running through some valley where every monster can kill me in one shot over a valley where monsters are all my level. The feeling you get when you **** your pants as they find you is perfect. :D

For me, I can't really decide on the issue. On one hand I get what you're saying; that by having level-scaling you're keeping the world in the game open, so that anyone playing is actually able to go anywhere, and that having certain areas where enemies are stronger or weaker is kind of a way to impose a sort of linearity on the player and the game itself. If you know there's an area with super strong monsters, and you have a level 2 character, you're probably not going into that area.

On the other hand, the level scaling just seems forced, and I think Yahtzee Croshaw hit the nail on the head in his review when he said that you just can't get immersed in this game. How can you when you know you have to level up to even get access to better weapons?? Or when the area you left earlier in the game was populated with wolves but you come back after awhile and there's nothing but bears (godless killing machines!!). What happened? Did the bears come out of hibernation and eat all the wolves or something???

Maybe it does break the immersion a bit but to me it's worth it to have a constant challenge. And leveling gives you new skills so there is some point. Also I always found it stupid how in some games if you're level 50 you can take like a hundred sword hits. Am I not still human? If someoone whacks me with a sword it should hurt no matter what level I am :?

[QUOTE="CronoSquall"]It takes away the satisfaction of becoming stronger. I SHOULD be able to completely destroy early game enemy types, it shows how far I've come. But it wasn't the level scaling, so much as the loot scaing, which ruined the static console versions of Oblivion. Knowing where certain items and equipment are, but being forced to level grind to get worthwhile versions of them, now THAT is boring.locopatho

Actually yes loot scaling sucked. (Although Diablo another beloved game did this too... :P)

Diablo did nothing of the sort. Diablo had a system where each boss had a loot level range it could drop, witch 3 different acts incorperated into the game to adjust these ilvls. You could go back to the basic level and at any time and whoopass with your uber gear.

nope i rather have new places with stronger enimies this way it give you a reason to level up. i mean come on now a goblin takes like 20 hits with the sword at leavel 20 and up. hack hack hack it makes even more boring than hiting some enimies with one shot.

if you enter a place from before because you killed them before the should be scared of you being even more powerful this way you get the feeling your becoming a nown caracter in the lands.

BTW, just asking for some advice from all you PC modders out there, does the OOO mod address the whole level scaling issue?svetzenlether

Yes it does. There are tons of mods that do it actually.

[QUOTE="svetzenlether"]BTW, just asking for some advice from all you PC modders out there, does the OOO mod address the whole level scaling issue?Cali3350

Yes it does. There are tons of mods that do it actually.

[QUOTE="svetzenlether"]BTW, just asking for some advice from all you PC modders out there, does the OOO mod address the whole level scaling issue?Cali3350

Yes it does. There are tons of mods that do it actually.

Try FCOM, its a successfull integration of 4-5 overhaul mods at once.

Diablo did nothing of the sort. Diablo had a system where each boss had a loot level range it could drop, witch 3 different acts incorperated into the game to adjust these ilvls. You could go back to the basic level and at any time and whoopass with your uber gear.

Cali3350

I'm fairly certain there was mods you could only get at once you were a certain level.

from my experience, people don't like it because jrpgs teach you to level-grind so you can easily take on foes (or thats the only way to have a chance against said foes). your characters so easily taking on your foes brings a feeling of triumph. you worked for that. level-scaling shoots these people in the face because it denies them their strategy. a difficult part of a game can't be overcome by level-grinding. you have to actually play strategy. some people would rather work for an awesome character so they can roll thourgh an area.

i can appreciate both. i'm glad ff usually doesn't use it, but i'm glad oblivion did. does mass effect? not sure.

p.s. by the by, to people saying that their is no reward for leveling in oblivion: people with sneaky characters would disagree. and also, the game is supposed to get harder as you go.

Because fighting a rat that puts up a good fight at the same level that you're killing a GOD, or let alone a thief with obsidian armour, is just down right stupid?Vandalvideo

Rats are always easy to kill...

from my experience, people don't like it because jrpgs teach you to level-grind so you can easily take on foes (or thats the only way to have a chance against said foes). your characters so easily taking on your foes brings a feeling of triumph. you worked for that. level-scaling shoots these people in the face because it denies them their strategy. a difficult part of a game can't be overcome by level-grinding. you have to actually play strategy. some people would rather work for an awesome character so they can roll thourgh an area.

i can appreciate both. i'm glad ff usually doesn't use it, but i'm glad oblivion did. does mass effect? not sure.

p.s. by the by, to people saying that their is no reward for leveling in oblivion: people with sneaky characters would disagree. and also, the game is supposed to get harder as you go.

Hihatrider87

That's an interesting way of looking at it, and I agree there is definately a place for both.

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Because fighting a rat that puts up a good fight at the same level that you're killing a GOD, or let alone a thief with obsidian armour, is just down right stupid?locopatho

Rats are always easy to kill...

Because it destroys that feeling of character progression that you get as your character levels up, and makes it completely pointless to level up in the first place because if you're level 1, not only will the rats be level 1, but the GODS that you are fighting will be level 1.

I guess my real problem was with how rediculous it was when implemented in Oblivion. I guess if they made the system less completely stupid, then it could work out fine.

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

Pdiddy105

There's level scaling in FF?

Trick question?

If not, b/c it ruins the feeling of leveling up - as in - you really never do when compared to the enemy. :?

[QUOTE="locopatho"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Because fighting a rat that puts up a good fight at the same level that you're killing a GOD, or let alone a thief with obsidian armour, is just down right stupid?Vandalvideo

Rats are always easy to kill...

It defeats the entire point of character progression in an RPG. Character progression is the primary factor for investing time in the game.

If enemies scale to your level, and more importantly, to the same effort to kill, you've lost any value to the point of levelling up - the the main motivator for an RPG. It makes the time involved levelling feel worthless.

If enemies scaled to your level, i dont think most people would mind as long as the player, at higher levels, had access to skills, weapons, or abilitites that would have made the fight easier. Several games do this where the enemies are always equal to your level, but fights generally become easier since the player has a wider range of skills to choose from that are useful and relevant to battle.

[QUOTE="Pdiddy105"]

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

locopatho

There's level scaling in FF?

Im pretty certain 8 was the only FF game that used it.....i have no idea what Square was thinking.

[QUOTE="Pdiddy105"]

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

locopatho

There's level scaling in FF?

Yep, that games broken. I can leave the first disc at level 99, with a very large assortment of the item that triggers that games version of limit breaks upon use, which means unlimited Renzokuken, which means no challenge to me from the game whatsoever.

What's the point of leveling up when doing so just makes your enemies more powerful?

I always hated how in Oblivion some stupid mountain lion was still dangerous to you when you're level 25.
Teufelhuhn

yeah, that kind of bothered me, too.

[QUOTE="Pdiddy105"]

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

locopatho

There's level scaling in FF?

just in ff8. 8 sucked for al lot of other reasons besides that. to the first guy:. if its omega weapon your fighting. there's an item you have to use to kill him. i think its dark matter... something idk. can't remember how to get it either. then use squalls highest limit break.

ff8 was the only ff game i reach the highest level in (100 for this one)... by the end of the second disc. 8 sucked on so many levels....

BTW, just asking for some advice from all you PC modders out there, does the OOO mod address the whole level scaling issue?svetzenlether

Yes. And it brings life to the horrible Oblivion.

Google "FCOM", it's a mod that combines the best of the best mods of Oblivion, it makes it an enjoyable game!

Because the system is simply made too be abused... Why level when it gets easier and easier if you dont?

Also leveling in the wrong way in oblivion can make your character turn out really useless later.. How fun is it being level 30 and knowing it is harder then when you where level 1?

omgimba

the game never got hard. It kept everything simple and easy. yes if you level up higher they also got stronger. but at that point you were atleast on par and the enemy AI was never good enough that you couldn't kill it

The combat sucked so it wasn't interesting

and all in all it didn't feel like an RPG from that standpoint. you never really grew as a chracter. you just got a magic number

There was nothing to shoot for in that game. There was never any danger of being killed by superior monsters

You were always better off not leveling up(and in that situation scaling sucks, when it is better to not level up)

As a fan of Tactical RPGs, I love level grinding to death. It makes you more aware of all aspects of the game and your characters(s), weapon(s), and skill(s).

Level grinding is fun as well, at least to me.

As a fan of Tactical RPGs, I love level grinding to death. It makes you more aware of all aspects of the game and your characters(s), weapon(s), and skill(s).

Level grinding is fun as well, at least to me.

SpruceCaboose

It can be. Diablo 2 was. I usually hate it though.

[QUOTE="Pdiddy105"]

I was stuck on a certain boss in FF8, so i decided to grind a good 10+ levels, and whaddaya know? That actually ended up making the battle HARDER than before. Level scaling sucks....and it makes leveling up less rewarding every time.

locopatho

There's level scaling in FF?

It was just done very badly in Oblivion.

I didnt really mind it in Mass Effect/Kotor

i simply can't comprehend someone complaining about a game getting harder throughout. Why would anyone expect anything else?

yes, there can be a few inconsistencies with scaling, but in some games it helps more then it hurts. level-grinding shouldn't be a necessity in every rpg.

mass effect, to me, is the best example of scaling done right.

i simply can't comprehend someone complaining about a game getting harder throughout. Why would anyone expect anything else?

yes, there can be a few inconsistencies with scaling, but in some games it helps more then it hurts. level-grinding shouldn't be a necessity in every rpg.

mass effect, to me, is the best example of scaling done right.

Hihatrider87

I dont want the game to get easier as i play it, i want new areas to open up to me, with new enemies with strictly better gear then what i have, and while im walking through areas ive already been im a god.

If you do the main quest of Oblivion right off the bat...without trying to spoil things... youll fight something that should be really really powerful. But then level up 10 times and suddenly some random bandit guarding some crappy gold in a cave has better loot and is a harder challenege then this powerful being i just destroyed in the depths of hell?

Thats crap. Period.

I think everyone has stated all the main points already. Personally I'm not a fan of level scaling, but I strongly believe that if it's there, the game should *present a reason for it*. Perhaps a dark portal has opened in the world and a flood of new, stronger enemies has arrived; the world is ravaged and only the strongest heroes can survive. It doesn't make much sense for everyone in the entire game to suddenly become stronger just because your character has become stronger.

There seems to be an emphasis on the idea that RPGs without level scaling *require* grinding. I've rarely seen a case where that was true. Even with Diablo 1 & 2, I managed to beat those the first time around without powergaming (grinding solely for the purpose of getting stronger). The same goes for Fallout 1 & 2, Ultima, etc. It was only then after I beat those games that I started powergaming and trying to collect cool, rare gear and play multiplayer that the grinding started to appeal to me. Even Final Fantay (which I don't like very much anymore) doesn't require grinding. Speed runs through FF games show that, while challenging, one can get through the game without spending extra time hacking away at monsters.

While I agree that there should be an abundance of areas that one can safely explore at lower levels, that shouldn't mean an inexperienced soldier with a pistol should be able to attack a heavily fortified base of machine guns and elite soldiers head-on.

I think there's a good place for a mixture in many RPGs. For a simple example, arenas can use level scaling effectively and believably, as the arena masters can try to match you up with an opponent of equal strength. That said, I'd still prefer the classic way of doing it where a medium-strength character can advance easily through the lowest-ranked arena opponents but then find it challenging at the mid-levels and impossible or nearly so at the higher ranks, but that's just me. In any case, I think that if a game has level scaling, *at least make it convincing.*