So the situation in Israel...

@texasgoldrush: I doubt it was any policy from Israel that caused Hamas to attack. It’s their religion.

I was referring to Israel being one of the only dependable allies the US/West have in that region.

But you're right, apartheid is not a necessary evil.

So you choose apartheid, racism, and oppression, is that it?

@texasgoldrush: 28 percent of Israel is Arab population and they hold positions of power in the government so they’re not an apartheid state. You sound stupid.

HAMAS is one of the two political parties there.

Yes.

Cause if you switch it, it swings the same way.

Not going to get into all the angles you want to get into. Will keep the responses simple. Try and poke however you wish, but without going into context, my answer is my answer!

While there's no excuse for what Hamas is doing, but Israel hasn't doing themselves any favors with their apartheid state that seems fervently antagonistic from their hawkish factions who will bulldoze the homes of Palestinians to make new neighborhoods for Israelis when they just could have put that shit elsewhere. From the other side, militant Palestinian groups don't do themselves any favor constantly lobbing rockets into Israeli territory, they seem motivated to poke the bear to invite a heavy handed response and play up the victimhood, and recruit people looking to spill blood when their friends and family die. That's been the norm for years and compared to now that cycle of violence now seems like a era of relative peace. Rocket attacks seemed like a common annoyance and reports were many at the music festival thought it was going to be a passing moment before all hell broke loose.

What worries me most now is Netanyahu being in charge over there. This is a guy who had to demolish the homes of Palestinians just to have his dream home built, which I imagine wouldn't be a dream home for him unless was built off the tears and broken dreams of those he despises. Netanyahu for months has moved to quash the independent judicial system in their country, because despite him being elected into power he's facing corruption charges for seemingly forever... and yeah, they elected him. This attack no doubt will grant him more power to be a hawkish fascist fucker and he'll exercise it, not to mention distract and deter from his looming legal problems. Not that I've looked into this claim but heard murmerings already foreign intelligence agencies warned Israel of this looming plot by Hamas and Netanyahu sat on it. Not saying I believe he let this play out for the political advantage, but not dismissing it either, but regardless of whether he let it happen or not, he'll certainly capitalize on the moment. Despite this just being a horrible setback for peace in the area being achievable, I also see it as a major development for Israel's declining semblance of democracy.

If you switch what?

The opposite of aparthied, racism and oppression isn't more of it done by someone else. The opposite is peace.

Find a better vein of thought than justifying and condoning racism and oppression. That's a trash response with a bunch of excuses to justify pain and suffering.

None of this should be okay with anyone. Forcing these people to live in a defacto open air prison where access to even food and water are limited and cut off at any time, where access to basic building materials like concrete are regularly suspended whenever Israel feels like it, where your home is your home until they decide to humiliate you and your family by taking it and moving you out onto the street for decades.

What's so funny about this is that if any...ANY...of that was to happen or attempt to be inflicted upon you or your own, you'd have the guns ready and would expect to fight. Why should these people be expected to do less to defend what they have than you would expect to do? Why would they accept less dignity and rights than you yourself demand? Why are these people expected to just...die quietly? And what made people like you so indifferent to their suffering, as if they created this apartheid state theselves?

What about these numbers look like we're seeing anything but a slow-moving genocide? Complete with posters here cheering on and advocating said genocide. It's just blowing me away. The second chart below is gonna be wild when they finally update it with all the Israeli and Palestinian deaths when this "war" is over and the blind eye of the west allows for it all. And for what.

@adrian1480: That just shows that when HAMAS attacks, they aren't as good at hitting targets. They do go on the offensive a lot. Don't whitewash that.

Terrorists are scum and must be exterminated like rabid dogs. But, as much as I look forward to these scum dying, I am not naive and know that it will solve nothing.

Because terrorists are created, not born. In this case, you cannot cram 2 million people into a tiny area, with no jobs, no infrastructure, no hope, no future, behind barbed wire, and separated from the rest of the world; and expect that to go well.

The cycle of terror is simple: rile up some young men with no hope, get them to commit atrocities, get them killed in the inevitable retaliation, get a whole bunch of civilians killed in the same retaliation, recruit new young men from the relatives of the civilians killed. Rinse and repeat.

Thus, the broader problem cannot be solved without taking out the people that are actually in-charge. And that is the govt, religious, and military leadership in Iran, Syria, and Lebanon to begin with.

That in turn requires the West and the oil rich Sunni countries to collaborate, which seems highly unlikely.

And it requires Israel to accept that it too needs to change.

Personally, I see no hope. I have been watching this cycle on TV since the Munich Olympics in 1972 and that was already decades in the making at that time.

Except, the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, an Israeli human rights group B'Tsalem, and many others have referred to Israel as an apartheid state.

You didn't check the facts before you post.

https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid

Once again, check your facts or you are the one who sounds stupid.

WRONG

You have no context to arrive to your answer, if you did, you would realize that Palestinians have many different factions.

I agree with LJS.

Chart doesn't mean they attack less. Just means they are just poorly equipped and don't hit targets.

blindly flail rockets over the border hoping to kill an Israeli. Then they come back and punish them for it. Is what it is.

From the responses I feel that we all agree Israel is the oppressor but we just divided cause of politics and religion.

When people learn to cheer for empathy and the presence of justice and not for sides and "teams" like this is sport, humanity as a whole will be in a much better place. Politics and the expression of western imperialist religious order do little more than make groups feel morally superior, entitled, and unable to evolve and build. Long, short: if your expression of politics and/or religion resemble anything but love and growth above everything, you didn't read your religious text.

Like Dr. King said, too many people are preoccupied with and devoted to order, a negative peace and the absence of tension than they are to a positive peace and the presence of justice. You can't claim to care about people and be more devoted to order than to justice. You're actually just a fraud.

Hamas is the aggressor

Two terrorist organizations fighting each other. Hamas and Isreal deserve each other. Only sad part is that this finally gives Netanyahu the excuse he wants to level entire Gaza and either kill or drive away every Palestinian there. Final solution to the Palestinian question.

They are in this instance of war.

In the broader perspective, Israel military forces have been the aggressor towards the Palastenian people for many years (see charts posted above). Just a slow drip of terror and destruction instead of a single hard hit most of the time (as Hamas has engaged in here), as the West turned a blind eye outside of human rights watch organizations.

Perspective is CANNOT be left out when it comes to oppression and rebellion. The issues between these parties didn't just start and its context informs the "why". And it also informs what will happen next to the civilians on all sides. A lot of death and destruction.

Funny that even MAGAs with all their rebellious spirit can not keep themselves from licking Israel's boot.

Leftys defending Hamas.

Even though they would probably throw them off rooftops for thier degenerate behavior.

@adrian1480:

Couple of things, I guess.

When I said switch it, I meant switch my answer and it would be the same blah blah racism/oppression. The key players here are Israel and Hamas. Wasn't 25 years ago, but not getting into that. The choice is between those two. No one else is even a contender, directly.

I'm not choosing Israel because I agree with them and their methodology. I'm choosing them because I feel they would get along with the other real powerhouses of the region and for the sake of stability.

@sakaixx: No, we don’t agree that Israel is the oppressor. That’s complete nonsense.

@sargentd: In surprised the anti Jewish right is defending Israel after so much chanting about Jews replacing you guys. 🤷‍♂️

@sakaixx: No, we don’t agree that Israel is the oppressor. That’s complete nonsense. Hamas needs to be destroyed.

Horrible terror attack from Hamas. There is no excuse for murdering unarmed civilians like that. It reminds a bit of how right wing extremist Breivik gunned down unarmed young social democrats on the island Utöya. It's hard for me to grasp how any human can do such a thing.

That being said, the situation i Gaza is not acceptable and has not been for many years. No one should live like that. And I don't see how life on the Gaza strip could ever be fixed. The population growth has been rapid. I have seen estimation that it will grow towards 3 million in a not too distant future.

Estimated Population in Palestine Mid-Year by Governorate,1997-2021 (pcbs.gov.ps)

So what to do? There is no good solution. But the least bad solution imo is to move the people of Gaza to other countries (maybe Israel should give land near the West Bank, or to other arab nations in the region, or a combination with Europe also playing a role) and that Israel takes over Gaza. I understand this solution is not popular 🙂. But people can't live in misery for decades just to prove a point.

So why should the people of Gaza move and not the Israelis? First of all they are much fewer (2,3 million). Secondly their life is miserable, while life in Israel is decent. That means things can only get better for them. Third, there is just one jewish state, but many muslim states.

Israel's brutal bombing campaign, perhaps followed by a ground invasion, will not solve anything. It will just make the situation worse while at the same time causing pointless human suffering among innocent civilians. The world needs to come together and offer the people of Gaza something better!

My two cents 😉

@Sushiglutton: I'm not sure if any of the Muslim nations want the Palestinians. Think the only reason some even support them is because they want Israel gone.

Is it plausible that if Israel was destroyed, and the Palestinians took over, that they in turn would be taken over by one of the Muslim nations that's been arming Hamas?

It's why I'm choosing Israel in this fight. No matter what happens the Palestinians are screwed.

justification for continued violence.

Hamas murders hundred / thousands of Israelis, Israeli military retaliates and kills thousands / tens of thousands fighters or civilians. Both sides see future justification to kill each other.

dat classic IDF collective punishment. just horriffic.

@adrian1480: Just out of curiosity, what do you think war means?

I haven's seen that much. Just facts and obvious nuance hurting people's feelings.

Correct. Hamas is the aggressor in this specific conflict, but there are long standing reasons as to why we got to this place. It's a horrible situation all around for both sets of civilians involved.

Ground invasion coming soon. Gonna be horrible for everyone.

@robertos: The absolute fringe of the left is, but we don't talk about Tankies. They're small in number, have zero power or influence, and lack any nuance at all.

Best to let them scream into the void.

Wars being funded on both sides all over the world by the US government and nobody bats an eye. WW3 is closer than ever before. It's only a matter of time until a major NATO ally is hit. We need to stop this bs NOW. Crazy thing is... it's all by design.

@WitIsWisdom: not worried about ww3, in regards to this fresh war.

As they should. **** terrorists.

@WitIsWisdom:

I would let it all happen. Whatever is in this world doing stuff like that needs to be blown the hell back up. Work on your worrying and tired in advance faces. This world is for real life only.

Russia alone is using more weaponry than the world is capable of producing, aren't they? Another war means we empty our storage of weapons even faster. And an even higher incentive to produce more, however building new factories takes time. Getting the personell as well.

WW3 isn't happening. Stop this? Russia has it's hands in both of these. You want to stop it, stop Russia.

I don't know if Russia has an hand in this but Iran for sure. Yet, this is the kind of move that's always going to be a win win for Russia, as Israel shows all their might crushing one of the poorest regions in the world with the full support of the US. Notice how both Russia and China reacted, just calling for rationality from both sides.

You have to keep in mind that around the world the conflict doesn't just pop in the news when HAMAS acts, regular news of Israeli atrocities are part of the news cicle for billions of people. Plus the US is way too compromised with Israel, if the region gets unstable they know the US won't resist diverging funds and resources towards them.

What's your proof that Russia is behind Hamas attacking Israel?????

And so is Israel.

And I thought the Russian army was bad.

I am done with Joe Biden, so wish it was Bernie Sanders as President, he would be so much better in this moment than clueless Biden.

Too bad for you, Bernie already made his choice with his election...

Doesn't mean I have to choose Biden.

Two party system.

American elections in a nutshell.

@LJS9502_basic: lol... lost in the sauce man, lost in the sauce. The US is funding both sides of the war in different regions of the world including Russia/Ukraine, China/Taiwan (hasn't happened yet but its on the edge), and Iran (Hamas)/Israel. Do a little research and it's not hard to tell what's happening. Let's not pretend Biden hasn't said the quiet part out loud several times... when he and his cronies talk about lowering the world's population it is loud and clear.

Do you really believe Russia is behind Israel and not Iran? Like do you really? What would the point be? What's the end game? Russia is so weakened at this point the last thing they would ever want is for NATO to actually get involved outside of military aid.

Dems crying how Republican are war mongers and then close their eyes and ears to all reality when wars are breaking out all over the world brought to you by democrats and weak policies.. lol.

You can try to bury your head in the sand and ignore it, but just because the US isn't at war yet if any more wars break out it will be WW3 without most or any NATO countries even being involved. The US didn't get involved in WW2 for 2 years... Open your eyes.

The top dems want WW3 to happen. Keep denying it until it's too late if you will, but remember this conversation. We are closer to WW3 than a lot of you seem to think. We are literally on the brink and are closer than we have ever been.

How many more countries need to start wars before you would see it as a tipping point and would consider it a world War? Just curious.

Do I need to point out the obvious and devide the two sides into categories country by country? How many more.. 2? 4? 10?

Do you even know how many countries are at war right now? Let's not even get started with all the civil wars raging right now.... Half the world is already fighting and tensions are at a breaking point for many others.

If NATO gets involved then the majority of the world is at war. Are you suggesting with world tensions where they are there is no possible way a NATO country could be spurred into war? Not a single one? Because that's all it will take.. just one.

@texasgoldrush: lol did you seriously link a pro Palestine conspiracy group for your proof?

You can’t be apartheid when the people you’re “supressing” are represented as citizens and hold positions of power.

No, its an Israeli human rights group, you know, Jewish people.

And Arabs are discriminated against in Israel proper, but its the West Bank where the apartheid really occurs.

@eni232: Yeah... I'm sure you would know a lot more about the politics at work involving wars more than me. I fought in 2 combat deployments under false pretenses and saw the worst of both sides and then got dragged through the system after getting injured and was tossed to the side for years fighting to keep my head above water in a system that proved to me time and time again that our military is little more than numbers. Care to speak on your experience?

I've seen this before with another Democrat calling the shots. Trump gets elected and there are no new wars and he vowed to end the ones the dems got us into. Biden gets in office and the world implodes and we are on the brink of WW3 whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Where the US goes the world goes, and once these others countries wise up to the fact that we are fanning the flames of War for both sides they are more likely to turn their attention to the kid sitting on the hill with the magnifying glass burning off the ants feelers rather than continue a pointless war they felt compelled to enter due to weak leadership and epicly failing economies.

The economies of Russia and China were and still are on the verge of collapsing and war is good for business for everyone involved. These superpowers aren't going down without a fight and if you think they are going to roll over when things get tough I've got a bridge to sell you. History repeats itself when people get lazy and complacent... and here we are again.

Every year social media and the brain washing makes the kids of our country weaker and more subservient. Trained not to ask questions or think outside the box.

Sweeping this under a rug and pretending it doesn't exist is why we are here in the first place.

I always love when armchair managers want to argue with people that have dealt with large scale circumstances of a very similar nature. This is a holy war, these people have been at war for thousands of years. No amount of good intentions and shoveling US tax payers dollars into the furnace is going to do anything except fan the flames of war, and standing behind it all are the corporate stooges actually pulling the strings of puppets like sleepy Joe.

Unless I misunderstand where you're coming from since you didn't convey your message too clearly I think you're suggesting that we stay out of it right? If that is your stance then I couldn't agree more... however I get the sense that you feel we are staying out of things.. which we most certainly are not.

The US is funding both sides of wars all over the world and we are on the brink of something much larger if people don't pull their heads out of their asses and open their eyes soon. We need to vote in change before its too late.

We have to let other countries fight their own wars or when things go South the finger points back at the supplier. It always does. Don't worry though... Hamas says that 6 billion is going towards food and nothing else... lmao... sure. They say that with a straight face while operating out of children's schools, hospitals, civilian housing, mosques/shrines, and important landmarks of historical significance.... using women and children as humam shields and attacking from such positions while pointing the finger the other way blaming Israel of killing innocent civilians even after Israel gave the people a warning period to leave the area.

Do you know how much we have sent to Ukraine? To Israel? Spent on Russian oil? Given to China in one sided deals? How we vow to keep Taiwan safe? Iran and North Korea being brushed to the side and never being held accountable?

When you play both sides of the fence you enter into a dangerous game of cat and mouse and it's only a matter of time until it catches up and people from both sides demand answers.... but don't worry we will make everything better by shoveling billions more to countries that wouldn't lift a finger to help us if the shoe were on the other foot. All the while just a fraction of that money being spent in our own country could drastically improve the lives of millions of Americans. Problem is... that goes against their plan. Their plan is to keep us arguing and pointing fingers at each other about nothing of any importance while they strip our freedoms and sell our farmland to foreign entities.